Curse

Cherrie · Sep 15, 2009, 01:14 PM // 13:14

This seems like a very throughout research.
I haven't had time to read it all yet (I will) but I'd like to point your attention to fact that the structures you list in "Last minute add-ons", the groups of long bars, can be regarded as natural: google for Giant's Causeway, nature created wonders like that from bazalt!
Not that it would contradict your points, but don't base your oppinion on those formations

draxynnic · Sep 15, 2009, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Due to Zoldark being a prisoner, and the place being highly detailed structures (snake adorned pillars, along with pillars without snakes, and lots of decorated walls (the "Tarnished Coast Ruins")), I doubt they'd go less decorations for non-prison areas. Except maybe dumps, but the only other place with pillars lacking the snake pillars is the Cathedral of Flames, such a big structure (which was at least on par with cathedrals) - probably something of importance as it is the biggest known structure of the Depths - doesn't make sense to me to go with less effort over a known prison.

Then maybe they serve a protective purpose - could be that they figured with Zoldark locked away, they didn't need them in future settlements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I brought up why the builders were not the Forgotten (no point building stairs if they didn't have legs, there are some ramps, but overall more stairs than ramps). The pillars representing the twins at Twin Serpent Mountains is plausible, but I don't see why it would be existent next to a statue to Melandru (a gold one at that).

Slight misunderstanding there - what I was really meaning to say that even though the builders probably aren't Forgotten, that doesn't mean they don't know of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

As for the Ascalonian structures, that is rather the hardest to argue for, due to the unknown origin of the Catacombs (unknown if it is of Ascalonian origin or not), but due to the re-use and even modification of Ascalonian structures, and all Ascalonian structures but the arches found in the Catacombs, unless the depths are based off of the Ascalonian structures, then it has to be that the Ascalonian structures are based off of the Depths. There are too many structures which are used in Ascalon in the Depths to be just reuse of models, and with the change in structures, again the likeliness of simple reuse is unlikely.

A mix? Some things in there are Ascalonian (possibly built to blend in), while others are of Builder origin?

Konig Des Todes · Sep 15, 2009, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unendingfear

Ya, I knew what you were implying.

But maybe the Seers and the Mursaat are two of those weird "statue" races. If that's the case, then there must be third. : o

I did think of connecting the statues within the walls in the ice dungeons to the Seer (they body of what we see is a tad similar, it appears to have 3 fingers (which includes thumbs), and the faces may be a bit similar (I'll have to go back and take a look, the picture is bad). And I guess it is possible the one with the sword is of the Mursaat.

But it is a rather large jump, I believe, to connect either statue with the races.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherrie

This seems like a very throughout research.
I haven't had time to read it all yet (I will) but I'd like to point your attention to fact that the structures you list in "Last minute add-ons", the groups of long bars, can be regarded as natural: google for Giant's Causeway, nature created wonders like that from bazalt!
Not that it would contradict your points, but don't base your oppinion on those formations

I had a feeling, due to the immense range of those in the game, that they were natural. Just kept the possibility of being artificial open.

Doesn't change much, since that was just a side point (hence why it was in the end section).

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Then maybe they serve a protective purpose - could be that they figured with Zoldark locked away, they didn't need them in future settlements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Slight misunderstanding there - what I was really meaning to say that even though the builders probably aren't Forgotten, that doesn't mean they don't know of them.

I agree with that possibility, however:

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

Or it could just be a homage to the Forgotten... which may be a contemporary if not the identity of the builders themselves.

Not a big misunderstanding.

Gmr Leon · Sep 15, 2009, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Is having the two together, in your terms, even possible? There's no way I can see the two being literally the same thing. Even if they are designed together, you'd still see where one starts and the other ends... Same goes with every kind of material... Only way I can see two different kinds of materials being the same thing by what seems to be your terms,

I don't see it as being completely impossible. They don't need to be the "same thing" so much as they need to be so intertwined that they appear as one. I don't honestly know how it would look, but the structures in Raven's Point don't click with me as being it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The things which float and the "geometric generators" were deemed the additions - the later of which you pointed out. Which also appears to be the case.

That doesn't make me absolutely certain of it, though. :tongue:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

What I see the the high possibility of re-used skins. That is, Anet didn't put visual effort into making the Altrumm Ruins looking unique. This could be due to the lore of the location being made after the area was. Looks cannot always be taken at face value. One needs to see where the lore ends and the game mechanics (or re-use of texture

) begins. That is my guess of where the line is.

And..I'm still thinking the lore is legitimate for the area, but the appearance is not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

First, I want to get this straight on the reused thing. You are saying that due to the large amount of models used, that it is more likely to be purposely reused? Yes? Well, that's what I said. But I take it you mean, purposely reused without lore value?

That, I believe, is where we disagree.

No. What I'm saying is due to the large amount of models reused, that it is far more likely that they are not being used with any real intent behind them aside to give off a certain appearance. In short: If they were reused a few times (three or four times, perhaps) then they may hold some legitimacy in terms of lore. However, if they are reused to the extent to which we see in the Depths, chances are they don't hold any real legitimacy.

Using the term purposely is pointless here, as obviously they have purposely done so, but it needn't mean they had anything to back it up. If they did, I suspect it was fabricated after the fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I knew this would eventually come up. The Mursaat and Seers have legs. This means they do not naturally float. Meaning that in the past, the Mrusaat and Seers, maybe even as young beings, they walk with their legs. If they float from birth to death, then their legs would be extremely weak, and would be much skinnier than they actually are.

In other words, the two races have legs, and by all means should be able to use them. Just because we only see them floating (unless knocked down) doesn't mean they never walked.

The Mursaat have what appears to be a device producing the wings which may cause their levitation, so that is a viable point with them. However, we have nothing on the Seers to suggest a device, and thus, we cannot assume simply because they have legs that they are capable of walking.

That's like assuming a four-armed person can use all four arms.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 15, 2009, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I don't see it as being completely impossible. They don't need to be the "same thing" so much as they need to be so intertwined that they appear as one. I don't honestly know how it would look, but the structures in Raven's Point don't click with me as being it.

Sounds pretty in theory, but I don't think it is possible. I mean, you can, say, build a structure out of two materials, say iron and steel, but they still wouldn't be appearing as the same thing.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

That doesn't make me absolutely certain of it, though. :tongue:

Now you're just being stubborn. Who replaced the ol' unannoying Leon with the one from the role player which bugged people?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

And..I'm still thinking the lore is legitimate for the area, but the appearance is not.

Basically what I said but... If the Altrumm Ruins appearance is not on par to lore, then what makes the ones in the Depths not the same as what Altrumm Ruins would be. Basically, if this is the case, then we cannot tell anything and all of the Kurzick structures, in fact all observable occurrence in the game, would be unable to be considered canon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

No. What I'm saying is due to the large amount of models reused, that it is far more likely that they are not being used with any real intent behind them aside to give off a certain appearance. In short: If they were reused a few times (three or four times, perhaps) then they may hold some legitimacy in terms of lore. However, if they are reused to the extent to which we see in the Depths, chances are they don't hold any real legitimacy.

Using the term purposely is pointless here, as obviously they have purposely done so, but it needn't mean they had anything to back it up. If they did, I suspect it was fabricated after the fact.

That makes no sense. Sure when models are used a few times, they have legitimacy. But for reuse of say, the canthan pipes in the depths, you say those have more lore legitimacy than the various other models seen in the depths?

If they just wanted to create the depths with no lore value from the beginning and later added lore value to the depths, then why use such an extreme amount of differences? Why use Kurzick structures? why not have the "aztec" themed structures to be just Asuran (and have some other structures as the ruins)? But even then, if there is lore value now, then we should focus on finding what that lore value is, even if it didn't begin with lore value.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

The Mursaat have what appears to be a device producing the wings which may cause their levitation, so that is a viable point with them. However, we have nothing on the Seers to suggest a device, and thus, we cannot assume simply because they have legs that they are capable of walking.

That's like assuming a four-armed person can use all four arms.

Evolution doesn't produce limbs without a use to those limbs.

Gmr Leon · Sep 15, 2009, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Sounds pretty in theory, but I don't think it is possible. I mean, you can, say, build a structure out of two materials, say iron and steel, but they still wouldn't be appearing as the same thing.

Either way, the idea I get from the very vague description of Moladune is that it was either stone and ice intertwined to look magnificent, or it was mainly made up of ice, with some amount of stone where they couldn't choose and had to build upon it, making it go in line with the icy architecture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Now you're just being stubborn.

Not really. I am practically the embodiment of uncertainty, without being at a computer or next to the source of information, I barely ever speak as if I am sure of myself. How can we be certain that the geomystic generators aren't built from bits of the ruins that couldn't be modified because they were in shambles? How can we be certain the floating parts are really additions? Perhaps whatever made the ruins in the Arbor Bay cave merely cut off the source of their energy somehow.

We can't be certain of anything without appearing either, as you point out, stubborn, or presumptuous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Basically what I said but... If the Altrumm Ruins appearance is not on par to lore, then what makes the ones in the Depths not the same as what Altrumm Ruins would be. Basically, if this is the case, then we cannot tell anything and all of the Kurzick structures, in fact all observable occurrence in the game, would be unable to be considered canon.

Because we know the source of the other structures in the game. The case with the Altrumm Ruins and the Depths is that of an unknown source, which, due to this unknown source, should be unique. As it is not unique, it's worthless, as we cannot see how the Kurzicks integrated it into their existing architectural style. The same may as well be applied to the other Depths structures. If we could see some sign of transition, or integration, of the Depths architectural styles into the architectural styles we see amongst the existing races' architectural styles, then perhaps we'd have something of value. Otherwise, we have a bunch of reused textures and models in dungeons that do have some lore to them, but no pictures.

Think of a misprint of a child's book. You have the text which gives you the story, but nothing to illustrate that text.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

That makes no sense. Sure when models are used a few times, they have legitimacy. But for reuse of say, the canthan pipes in the depths, you say those have more lore legitimacy than the various other models seen in the depths?

And that's why it's not a completely accurate method of distinguishing which is lore relevant and which is not. Not to mention I never claimed it was accurate. The usage of Canthan pipes in the Depths, along with the large reuse of models and textures should display why exactly it is useless to try and apply speculation to these without producing countless examples of the Grimoire Fallacy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

If they just wanted to create the depths with no lore value from the beginning and later added lore value to the depths, then why use such an extreme amount of differences? Why use Kurzick structures? why not have the "aztec" themed structures to be just Asuran (and have some other structures as the ruins)? But even then, if there is lore value now, then we should focus on finding what that lore value is, even if it didn't begin with lore value.

Honestly? There is no lore argument for why, only one based on gameplay. They had to use an extreme amount of differences because people would be outraged if all they did was copy and paste the same dungeon over and over after advertising dungeons as a major feature of Eye of the North.

Why use Kurzick structures? Why use Ascalonian structures? They're the most appropriate for old tunnel walls and the like, look at the usage of Ascalonian Great Northern Wall structures in the central room of Slavers' Exile for example.

As to why not use the Aztec themed structures, can you honestly tell me those look appropriate in a dungeon in the first place? Perhaps in a large cave chamber where the ceiling is very high up, but the Asura's dialogue suggests that they aren't used to the sky, which would imply they lived in caves with lower ceilings.

As to finding the lore value. If it didn't begin with it, is it really legitimate? You could argue yes, and that the mention of Palawa Joko is an example of why, but a name is far better than a bunch of old structures with nothing to indicate their origin, and very little, if anything, to suggest their age.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Evolution doesn't produce limbs without a use to those limbs.

True, to some extent, but do we have anything to indicate evolution's occurrence on Tyria?

Unendingfear · Sep 16, 2009, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I did think of connecting the statues within the walls in the ice dungeons to the Seer (they body of what we see is a tad similar, it appears to have 3 fingers (which includes thumbs), and the faces may be a bit similar (I'll have to go back and take a look, the picture is bad). And I guess it is possible the one with the sword is of the Mursaat.

But it is a rather large jump, I believe, to connect either statue with the races

Well, it has been brought up soooo many times that the Mursaat and Seers could have ascended or something like that, and changed appearance. Besides, we can't even see the faces of the Mursaat, they have masks on.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 16, 2009, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Either way, the idea I get from the very vague description of Moladune is that it was either stone and ice intertwined to look magnificent, or it was mainly made up of ice, with some amount of stone where they couldn't choose and had to build upon it, making it go in line with the icy architecture.

Eh, different interpretations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Not really. I am practically the embodiment of uncertainty, without being at a computer or next to the source of information, I barely ever speak as if I am sure of myself. How can we be certain that the geomystic generators aren't built from bits of the ruins that couldn't be modified because they were in shambles? How can we be certain the floating parts are really additions? Perhaps whatever made the ruins in the Arbor Bay cave merely cut off the source of their energy somehow.

We can't be certain of anything without appearing either, as you point out, stubborn, or presumptuous.

Certain? Not really, but fairly certain (that is, with some amount of uncertainty) we can be. And the fact that there are none of those structures in any location except which the Asura reside is proof enough for me. Also, if those are not Asuran, then you are saying the opposite of what you argue for the Kurzicks. That is, that while the Kurzicks have their own structure based off something and not being exact copies of that something, Asurans do not have their own structures and theirs are mere copies and fixes of older structures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Because we know the source of the other structures in the game. The case with the Altrumm Ruins and the Depths is that of an unknown source, which, due to this unknown source, should be unique. As it is not unique, it's worthless, as we cannot see how the Kurzicks integrated it into their existing architectural style. The same may as well be applied to the other Depths structures. If we could see some sign of transition, or integration, of the Depths architectural styles into the architectural styles we see amongst the existing races' architectural styles, then perhaps we'd have something of value. Otherwise, we have a bunch of reused textures and models in dungeons that do have some lore to them, but no pictures.

Think of a misprint of a child's book. You have the text which gives you the story, but nothing to illustrate that text.

While not in the case of the Kurzick structures (excluding the Raven's Point parts, which is of a different color for the different environment), the Depths do have changes to the structures. I pointed out them for the Tarnished Coast ruins and the Ascalonian structures even. Cathedral of Flames holds changed versions of Ascalonian structures. Same shape and everything, except for the design along a part of the structure. For the Tarnished Coast ruins, the design is slightly different on a few spots. In fact, there are technically 4 different designs used on them. The one seen in mass in Vloxen Excavations level 3, the ones seen in the odd structure in Cathedral of Flames (and a couple other locations), the obviously old structures of the Tarnished Coast, and then the plausible modifications by the Asura.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Honestly? There is no lore argument for why, only one based on gameplay. They had to use an extreme amount of differences because people would be outraged if all they did was copy and paste the same dungeon over and over after advertising dungeons as a major feature of Eye of the North.

Er... you can use the same kind of structures without it being the same map....

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Why use Kurzick structures? Why use Ascalonian structures? They're the most appropriate for old tunnel walls and the like, look at the usage of Ascalonian Great Northern Wall structures in the central room of Slavers' Exile for example.

I'd agree with that if the Kurzick structures were in more than just two dungeons. With the rareness, it just looks as out of place as the Plinths in the Bloodstone Cave.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

As to why not use the Aztec themed structures, can you honestly tell me those look appropriate in a dungeon in the first place? Perhaps in a large cave chamber where the ceiling is very high up, but the Asura's dialogue suggests that they aren't used to the sky, which would imply they lived in caves with lower ceilings.

The CTC has a rather high ceiling... Also, skies don't have ceilings so even if there was a high ceiling as seen in the CTC, it wouldn't be called a sky, it is still just a ceiling.

One can put a baby in a room with a 3000 foot high ceiling, force the baby to grow up and live there, and the baby will never experience a sky and if the baby goes outside, it would be the same revelation as the prisoner from Plato's Republic leaving the cave.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

As to finding the lore value. If it didn't begin with it, is it really legitimate? You could argue yes, and that the mention of Palawa Joko is an example of why, but a name is far better than a bunch of old structures with nothing to indicate their origin, and very little, if anything, to suggest their age.

If you want to get technical, by your argument of legitimacy, then all of the lore, is especially the Elder Dragons, is not legitimate. How much do you think was thought up from the get go?

By your argument, technically, all GW lore is not legitimate because the game didn't begin with lore value. (Just watch the pre-alpha video which can be seen on Youtube somewhere, not just the graphics, but the very beginning lore is vastely different - only the guild idea was kept).

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

True, to some extent, but do we have anything to indicate evolution's occurrence on Tyria?

Centaurs - same race, two different looks, one with a more leonine look (Veldrunner and Losaru), and one with a more ape look with horns (Modniir and Harathi). Norn and Humans are possible evidences of evolution. Same with Naga and Forgotten, and the various Giants and Ogres.

One pure case, various possibilities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unendingfear

Well, it has been brought up soooo many times that the Mursaat and Seers could have ascended or something like that, and changed appearance. Besides, we can't even see the faces of the Mursaat, they have masks on.

That is a terrible hypothesis. Our characters ascended, did our characters' appearance change at all? Nope. Why would another group change? There's not even support to say either the Mursaat or the Seers ascended even, and the only known form of Ascension is in the Crystal Desert (closest other method *Weh no Su* is in fact not Ascension), and nothing suggests either ever being there either.

draxynnic · Sep 16, 2009, 01:36 PM // 13:36

It seems logical to me to presume that if the Seers have legs, there was some time in the history of the species where they walked on them even if they're vestigial now. By evolution they had to serve some purpose sometime in their evolutionary history, and if they were created... well, that's just bad design.

Gmr Leon · Sep 17, 2009, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Certain? Not really, but fairly certain (that is, with some amount of uncertainty) we can be. And the fact that there are none of those structures in any location except which the Asura reside is proof enough for me. Also, if those are not Asuran, then you are saying the opposite of what you argue for the Kurzicks. That is, that while the Kurzicks have their own structure based off something and not being exact copies of that something, Asurans do not have their own structures and theirs are mere copies and fixes of older structures.

None of those structures in any location except where Asura are found? I take it you mean the geomystic generators and the levitating pyramids above them, which is more or less true. In regards to all the other structures we see though, not so much, as I'm sure we more or less both know.

As to why I'm arguing the opposite of what I argued for the Kurzicks, there is backing to that. We have an implication, by the Altrumm Ruins, that there was something else that influenced their architecture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altrumm Ruins outpost description

The vast ruins of Altrumm are thought by most historians to be all that remains of the first great Kurzick city, destroyed by some ancient and mysterious catastrophe. The Kurzicks themselves claim their ancestors did not build the structures found here. If this is true, then Altrumm certainly influenced Kurzick architectural sensibilities.

However, we should not discount the possibility here that the historians are correct where the Kurzicks are not, that it was one of the first great Kurzick cities. Our entire back and forth regarding this aspect of the architecture is ignoring that it may just be that, before the organization of the Kurzicks into unified houses, they did in fact build a city. It's similar to the situation with Stonehenge, where the English/British, whichever you prefer, claim not to know its origin or its method of construction, whereas there is some degree of evidence to suggest that the same people, of a much different society and culture back then but nonetheless the same, built it.

As to what I'm flowing into though, we haven't the same implication for the Asura. We do know that the Asura had a civilization, and almost certainly had their own architecture and cities, but, this was all subterranean. Due to this, and the fact that we do not appear to run into any of the deeper depths of the Depths, where the Asura reside, we haven't anything to compare. As I said before, insufficient data. With more evidence, we could compare and contrast the styles of architecture and sort out what was originally Asuran, and what was of the ruins. If it wasn't in the future, we might even be able to take snapshots from the GW2 trailer for comparison, but, because it's in the future, it is highly probable that the styles have shifted over the centuries, possibly integrating the styles that were preexisting in the ruins of the Tarnished Coast into their own.

In short: Insufficient data.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

While not in the case of the Kurzick structures (excluding the Raven's Point parts, which is of a different color for the different environment), the Depths do have changes to the structures. I pointed out them for the Tarnished Coast ruins and the Ascalonian structures even. Cathedral of Flames holds changed versions of Ascalonian structures. Same shape and everything, except for the design along a part of the structure. For the Tarnished Coast ruins, the design is slightly different on a few spots. In fact, there are technically 4 different designs used on them. The one seen in mass in Vloxen Excavations level 3, the ones seen in the odd structure in Cathedral of Flames (and a couple other locations), the obviously old structures of the Tarnished Coast, and then the plausible modifications by the Asura.

But how much of that was meant to indicate that it was of an earlier civilization? Was it even meant to be anything other than changing it ever so slightly so people couldn't point and say, reuse of textures/models? Even with the changes, we can't be certain that they're a prime indicator of anything, other than meant-to-be-used-elsewhere-but-used-here-now structures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Er... you can use the same kind of structures without it being the same map....

But chances are, if you do, people are going to complain about it, become irritated by it, or make absurd connections from it. See the bridge in the Domain of Secrets, the bridge in the Abaddon's Gate mission, the serpent head in Sunjiang District and the Mursaat furnace in the wall in the very same mission.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I'd agree with that if the Kurzick structures were in more than just two dungeons. With the rareness, it just looks as out of place as the Plinths in the Bloodstone Cave.

So..Maybe there is something to the usage of the Kurzick structures. In the case of the Ascalonian structures, though, I can't think of many dungeons, except for the natural ones, that don't have them, and even the natural ones, I want to say, have some small piece or bit of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The CTC has a rather high ceiling... Also, skies don't have ceilings so even if there was a high ceiling as seen in the CTC, it wouldn't be called a sky, it is still just a ceiling.

One can put a baby in a room with a 3000 foot high ceiling, force the baby to grow up and live there, and the baby will never experience a sky and if the baby goes outside, it would be the same revelation as the prisoner from Plato's Republic leaving the cave.

...Er..What? I think you misunderstood. I was getting at that the Aztec structures would look more appropriate in a chamber with a high ceiling. I see what you mean in regards to the height of the ceiling now, but either way, even then, those structures seem as though they were built for chambers with higher ceilings. Any pyramidal structure, I would say, is built for areas with enough room to build vertically.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

If you want to get technical, by your argument of legitimacy, then all of the lore, is especially the Elder Dragons, is not legitimate. How much do you think was thought up from the get go?

Not enough, in the case of Guild Wars, and even then, we've both probably seen our fair share of the notes by concept artists in relation to the art. They have some idea of what they want conveyed through it, however much ties into the story though, is, of course, obscure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

By your argument, technically, all GW lore is not legitimate because the game didn't begin with lore value.

And that's a major issue I have with the lore, and with ever arguing anything of this nature, hence my reluctance to even get into this discussion because I knew exactly where it would lead. Whenever we try to discuss anything like this, we're bound to get into, well, what if they had this in mind, what if this was used for this reason, but, in the end, chances are, we're just laying the groundwork for their writers to pull the rabbit out of the habit. We look at the surface of the hat, and the hat itself, and make what we can of it, then they use that hat and pop something out for us.

It's an absolutely irritating situation to be in, and why I much prefer to speculate or ponder about the story of the Half-Life series of games because, while, yes, they do retcon certain things, such as the entire appearance of the Combine, they at least appear to have ideas as to where they're going, and what they want certain things to imply. Really, the only reason they even had to retcon the Combine is because they didn't know whether or not Half-Life would be a major success at the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Centaurs - same race, two different looks, one with a more leonine look (Veldrunner and Losaru), and one with a more ape look with horns (Modniir and Harathi). Norn and Humans are possible evidences of evolution. Same with Naga and Forgotten, and the various Giants and Ogres.

One pure case, various possibilities.

And this is why we need a paleontology skill. Also, I'd love to see, preferably in the Centaur thread, your argument for why on Tyria the two diverged in facial features so dramatically, or at least what led to it. I know I for one can't think of anything off the top of my head at the moment.

Hyper Cutter · Sep 23, 2009, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Centaurs - same race, two different looks, one with a more leonine look (Veldrunner and Losaru), and one with a more ape look with horns (Modniir and Harathi). Norn and Humans are possible evidences of evolution. Same with Naga and Forgotten, and the various Giants and Ogres

Not to mention that there are 5 races of frogmen (Ophil, Gokir, Hylek, Agari, and Heket), and at least 3 of Tengu.

And that's not even getting into stuff like Mandragors and Skale... and I can't even begin to comprehend how Krait taxonomy would work...

Winnies Bro · Sep 23, 2009, 07:52 PM // 19:52

I had an idea that the depths were once home to an ancient race, possibly the forgotten, and the designs of the dungeons were made by them and were copied by different civilizations, just taking bits that they fancied.

Then the ancient race left, if they were the forgotten then we know why they left, and the dungeons were just abandoned and fell apart.

It makes sense for the forgotten to have dungeons underneath all of tyria (they probably do stretch across all of tyria, we just can't go there).

So all the civilizations evolved and aged and forgot about the ancient civilization.

Just an idea.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 23, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter

Not to mention that there are 5 races of frogmen (Ophil, Gokir, Hylek, Agari, and Heket), and at least 3 of Tengu.

And that's not even getting into stuff like Mandragors and Skale... and I can't even begin to comprehend how Krait taxonomy would work...

But the only thing about those races are just the skin tone. Not really evolutionary effect. My idea on the Mandragors' looks would be different ages (notice that you have three sizes, the smallest to the biggest can easily be a form of metamorphosis - similar to a catepilar to a butterfly). Skale is harder to say, but due to the closeness in Elona and EN - they are not evolutionary differences like the centaurs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winnies Bro

I had an idea that the depths were once home to an ancient race, possibly the forgotten, and the designs of the dungeons were made by them and were copied by different civilizations, just taking bits that they fancied.

Then the ancient race left, if they were the forgotten then we know why they left, and the dungeons were just abandoned and fell apart.

It makes sense for the forgotten to have dungeons underneath all of tyria (they probably do stretch across all of tyria, we just can't go there).

So all the civilizations evolved and aged and forgot about the ancient civilization.

Just an idea.

Interesting, this is practically just what I was saying! >_>

A little observation I've found while vanquishing in Forum Highlands:

All found in the same spot, these are Forgotten (the first picture with the waterfall) and unknown (the rest) - something to note about the rest. Structures have the same design found in the Catacombs and the Rift (path to the Hall of Heroes). Giving an even more widespread giving of these structures.

Given this new observation, my new hypothesis on the structures is that there were multiple ancient races, all spread throughout the known world (and maybe more), and having lived so intertwined which they had shared structure designs. Meaning this ancient group of races were far more peaceful than the modern races.

I'd have to give a number of a five or six races. Only known race is the Forgotten. Dwarven is a high possibility. The different races' structures would be:

"Ice and Stone Structures" (consisting of Moladune and the Far Shiverpeak structures at least) - Guessed race: Seer
"Aztec Structures" (Which originates from the Maguuma, Kryta, and possibly further west)
"Ascalonian Structures" (Which originates from Ascalon/Charr Homelands and possibly further west) - Guessed race: Dwarven (reason: it is the most common structure of locations where dwarven artifacts are found)
"Forgotten Structures" (which is mostly seen now in only the Crystal Desert and Elona - possibly originating in Elona or around there) - Known race: Forgotten
"Altrumm Structures" (which originates from Cantha)

The snake pillars could easily be the best case of a combination of structure designs.

However, this idea is slightly changed. That is, the idea of the Ice and Stone Structures. Go to Glint's Challenge, what would one except? I would expect the same look as Dragon's Lair, but instead, we get this:

The place has none of the things found in the Dragon's Lair mission. But it is still within a shard of sand according to Consular Brand Oakencask:

This doesn't remove the possibility, but instead changes the situation. Those structures are not of ice and stone, but of crystal. Though, technically, still of stone as crystals are a time of gemstone.

Gmr Leon · Sep 23, 2009, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The place has none of the things found in the Dragon's Lair mission. But it is still within a shard of glass according to Consular Brand Oakencask:

This doesn't remove the possibility, but instead changes the situation. Those structures are not of ice and stone, but of crystal. Though, technically, still of stone as crystals are a time of gemstone.

I know it's very odd wording in that sentence, to use shard to describe sand, but..Yeah, you misread it. It says a shard of sand, not of glass. Whatever the case, this lends more support to my observation of it possibly being jade, which is a type of gemstone.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 23, 2009, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Leon, refresh yourself on Crystal Desert lore. The sand are tiny crystals. So sand and crystal would be the same in this case.

Gmr Leon · Sep 24, 2009, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Regardless, crystal does not equal glass.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 24, 2009, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Now I see what you meant. I missed that typo of mine. So not me misreading it, but me mistyping my comment. The point is: The structures are more likely to be crystals, than jade.

I edited my previous post to correct the typo.

Gmr Leon · Sep 24, 2009, 12:42 AM // 00:42

If I'm not mistaken, can't crystals be a variety of gemstones in a more natural form? That's not to say it isn't crystal, but..The two need not be entirely separate from one another, I think.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 24, 2009, 12:56 AM // 00:56

You are not mistaken (I think), but the crystals of the Crystal Desert (and those structures) are of a blue and light blue tints. Not really jade, which is of a more green look.

Gmr Leon · Sep 24, 2009, 01:34 AM // 01:34

At least, of what we've seen in Tyria, it's possible there are, like in the real world, color variations.